rod
New Member
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Post by rod on Jul 31, 2016 3:56:27 GMT
In a well developed JG there would all sorts of jobs tailored to the individual, but there would still be a need for welfare payments to those transitioning.
Will there always be work available or due to some constraints will there it be some time before a tailored job becomes available ?
It may take years for a JG to become developed enough to provide jobs for all, so I could see an unemployment benefit being available for some time.
This is here to start a discussion on the role of welfare and a Job Guarantee.
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Post by Iain Dooley on Jul 31, 2016 7:48:05 GMT
I brought up some of these issues in a post I just made about the Job Guarantee: aep.freeforums.net/thread/30/job-guaranteebut I think it would be worth leaving this discussion in it's own thread also because there will be a lot of different discussions around this so we can talk about just this aspect in this thread and then bring some of those decisions back into the main thread later. |
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Senexx
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Senexx on Aug 1, 2016 1:10:32 GMT
As it currently stands I'd have the JG wage above well-being payments but below the federal minimum wage.
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Post by Iain Dooley on Aug 1, 2016 11:27:08 GMT
In a well developed JG there would all sorts of jobs tailored to the individual, but there would still be a need for welfare payments to those transitioning. Will there always be work available or due to some constraints will there it be some time before a tailored job becomes available ? It may take years for a JG to become developed enough to provide jobs for all, so I could see an unemployment benefit being available for some time. This is here to start a discussion on the role of welfare and a Job Guarantee. I think one of the key components of any JG is that you are hired on the spot. There is no waiting period. |
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Post by johncitizen on Aug 1, 2016 11:37:06 GMT
As it currently stands I'd have the JG wage above well-being payments but below the federal minimum wage.
If we won't tolerate private sector wages below $18/hr then why is a JG wage below $18/hr acceptable?
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Edwin
Junior Member
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Post by Edwin on Aug 1, 2016 12:22:30 GMT
As it currently stands I'd have the JG wage above well-being payments but below the federal minimum wage.
If we won't tolerate private sector wages below $18/hr then why is a JG wage below $18/hr acceptable?
As far as I understand it, a JG pays lower than the minimum wage but higher than Newstart/Basic Income. The reason for why the JG would be paid lower than the minimum wage is to prevent the public sector from competing with the private sector. As far as I understand, if the public sector competed with the private sector it would result in high inflation before full employment was achieved. Also if the JG paid the same wage as the private sector minimum wage then why would people take a private sector job? The idea is to protect people from private sector unemployment, to have a safety net if they are fired or retrenched or just choose not to work in the private sector but instead take a JG. Iain Dooley can clarify the JG better than I can, and correct any incorrect statements about the JG that I have made. |
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Post by Iain Dooley on Aug 2, 2016 10:53:47 GMT
Thanks johncitizen and EdwinIt's more accurate I say that the JG wage IS the minimum wage. One of the main points made by MMT economists is that when we have involuntary unemployment the minimum wage is 0. As such there really would not be any private sector minimum wage jobs. They would all have to pay above minimum wage in order to entice people out of the JG labour pool. This raises some interesting questions: Could buisnesses afford to hire people? Yes by definition because government spending boosts aggregate demand. If they can't afford to hire people at a wage that guarantees a minimum level of participation in the economy they should go out of business and some other entrepreneur can have a try. Would we then still need award wages that differed per industry? Maybe not. Would we need to enforce minimum wages in private sector jobs? Maybe not. If people have the option of a guaranteed job but choose to work for less for some other reason maybe that should be between them and their employer. Of course we need to ensure some protection is in place to stop employers duping people ... |
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Edwin
Junior Member
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Post by Edwin on Aug 2, 2016 11:55:48 GMT
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Post by Iain Dooley on Aug 2, 2016 12:41:36 GMT
I think Bill probably discusses it in the paper posted in the main JG thread but I certainly haven't tried.
If we determined one now it would be different by the time it was enacted anyway but I think the key is to determine a method for finding out what it is. Again probably in Bills paper but I'll have to see
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Post by Iain Dooley on Aug 2, 2016 12:44:08 GMT
Based on my experience and budget (which is at the lower end of the spectrum  I'd say about $4,000 per month gross is on the ballpark but that would be if you had dependents. I guess you would have the same wage for everyone but then have child payment subsidies and the like. |
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Senexx
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Senexx on Aug 6, 2016 2:10:43 GMT
My understanding is that JG replaces the minimum wage, and pays at least the current minimum wage.
If we won't tolerate private sector wages below $18/hr then why is a JG wage below $18/hr acceptable?
As far as I understand it, a JG pays lower than the minimum wage but higher than Newstart/Basic Income. The reason for why the JG would be paid lower than the minimum wage is to prevent the public sector from competing with the private sector. As far as I understand, if the public sector competed with the private sector it would result in high inflation before full employment was achieved. Also if the JG paid the same wage as the private sector minimum wage then why would people take a private sector job? The idea is to protect people from private sector unemployment, to have a safety net if they are fired or retrenched or just choose not to work in the private sector but instead take a JG. Iain Dooley can clarify the JG better than I can, and correct any incorrect statements about the JG that I have made. It is a shame we do not have a multiquote function. John Citizen is pretty close, Iain explains it above well. The JG Wage becomes the de facto minimum wage. However, what you describe Edwin is what would I do as we transition to a JG. I'm currently a single individual with a large debt on around $14k and I estimate for each additional member I would require $10k. On my current income, I cannot effectively save. |
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Senexx
Junior Member
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Post by Senexx on Aug 6, 2016 8:57:50 GMT
Special request by Iain to put the price of Investing in a Job Guarantee here. Bill Mitchell presented this, back in 2013: bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=23728It goes into a lot of detail which is why I haven't quoted a portion of it & there are parts of it that I do not understand and I think require clarification. Looks like I will quote part of his conclusion  |
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Post by Iain Dooley on Aug 7, 2016 10:19:55 GMT
Great share Senexx and I've never looked at the fantasy budget in detail before but I'll also post a link to it in the main JG thread. It looks as though Bill has basically costed this according to current minimum wages and in that case it was a $22billion nominal cost programme ... Which even by neoliberal fiscally masochistic standards is still affordable!! |
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Post by Iain Dooley on Aug 14, 2016 1:23:54 GMT
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I'd say about $4,000 per month gross is on the ballpark but that would be if you had dependents.